Indeed, Id selected every credit, every internship and every job with the goal of eventually reaching the top of the masthead. I like to think my motivations were noble. After an adolescence spent reading teen magazines that didnt reflect me or my experience as an awkward Black girl, I decided to be the change I wanted to see in the world and set my sights on becoming EIC of such a magazine. As a result, I spent the majority of my career set on that missionuntil recently.

Id never considered my ambition a problem until I burned out in 2014 and then again in 2020. It wasnt enough to simply be good at a job, I had to be the best. My trajectory always had to be onward and upward. There was no space for grace, mistakes or pivots.

Its a sentiment that other high-achievers can relate to, especially Rainesford Stauffer, author of All the Gold Stars, a book that examines how burnout is a symptom of our ambition. A few years ago, Stauffer was diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder and learned more deeply how her personal ambition had been connected to her mental health.

[The diagnosis] has given me the space to slow down and go, okay, what are you actually ambitious about? What do you really feel motivated by? What feels important in some way versus what are you doing out of fear or a need to control something? she says.

Interrogating the motivations for your ambition is just one way to ensure its not getting the best of you. Below experts share a few more:

Take a time out

In addition to questioning her motivations, Stauffer also finds that incorporating more intentional downtime into her schedule helps her better manage her ambition and mental health.

For me, it feels more practical to add things on, ehs ays. I think about what I am adding to my day that is bringing meaning to my life, or something I can be ambitious about outside of workwhether its a 10-minute phone call with a friend or a creative project that I can dabble in for 15 minutes. Its something that gives me a bit of space from the productivity-focused nature of work.

Dr. Addia Gooden, a Chicago-based clinical psychologist, cosigns the idea of incorporating more rest and play with our ambition.

Having open time and space helps us with achieving our goals, she explains. We often feel like it detracts when really these things are additive. We actually do get to our goals better and faster when we take breaks, which is really nourishing and helpful for our mental health.

But taking time to rest and reevaluate can be uncomfortable at first.

Taking breaks is a different way of being for those of us who are high achievers and overworkers because its more comfortable to overwork. Thats what we know and we find security in it, says Gooden. So then it becomes how can we get comfortable feeling okay with who we are when were not working and thats some of the work as well.

Enlist a support squad

In addition to resting early and often, Gooden suggests enlisting a support team of people who can help you stay grounded when your ambition starts to feel overwhelming.

Find collaborators. Find sponsors. Find people who are in it with you and can remind you that youre worthy so that youre not so focused on this goal you havent reached and youre forgetting who you are, she says. Having people who can hold that space for you and remind you of those truths can be helpful. 

Redefine your relationship with ambition

When it comes to consciously uncoupling our self-worth with our worka common problem for highly ambitious peopleGooden suggests identifying more with our gifts and talents than our accolades. 

Its important to remember that what we do, the titles we have and the degrees we earn, all of those things are containers, she says. Being a therapist, journalist or lawyer is the containerits just a part of who you are and its one way you bring your gifts into the world, but its not all of you.

Gooden also encourages people, especially Black people, to consider how our countrys obsession with productivity is deeply rooted in capitalism, dating all the way back to slavery.

Black people were valued based on how much work they could do and how much money they could produce for a white family. So how radical would it be for us to disconnect ourselves from that harmful, horrific and traumatic legacy that our ancestors had to endure by saying I am not my work.

Its not that ambition in and of itself is bad, but extreme ambition can be damaging to our mental health (just ask me about the time I cried over losing my Peloton streak).

When I think about mental health and ambition, I think its such a fine line, says Stauffer. Because I think taking care of your mental health is ambitious. Healing is ambitious. Taking the time to reflect on your needs and what resources you need to fulfill those needs is really important.

Listen to the episode or read the full transcript below. 

Transcript

Alan Murray: Leadership Next is powered by the folks at Deloitte, who, like me, are exploring the changing rules of business leadership and how CEOs are navigating this change.

Welcome to Leadership Next, the podcast about the changing rules of business leadership. Im Alan Murray.

Michal Lev-Ram: And Im Michal Lev-Ram.

Lev-Ram: Alan, I was kind of blown away realizing that kidney disease is such a widespread issue. So widespread, in fact, that theres a Fortune 500 healthcare company thats dedicated to supporting people who are living with this disease.

Murray: Its a terrible disease, often caused by diabetes or high blood pressure, which obviously are prevalent in our society. And if your kidneys fail, you have to get your blood cleaned on a regular basis through dialysis. Thats what this company does. DaVita, the name is an Italian phrase for give life. It provides treatment to people who have kidney problems or whose kidneys have failed. And the CEO is Javier Rodriguez, who is our guest on this episode of Leadership Next.

Lev-Ram: And Javier is going to give us some specific stats on just how widespread kidney diseases but Im going to throw one stat out there in the intro, just to give our listeners some context. So 30 million Americans live with some form of kidney disease. Its a disease that is chronic and that needs chronic treatment, like you said, Alan.

Murray: To use big numbers, DaVita runs almost 3,000 outpatient dialysis centers across the country. And Javier talks about DaVitas goal to transform from just a dialysis company which frankly, is usually dealing with the disease after it becomes irreversible, except by transplant. Hes trying to make DaVita into a holistic kidney care company, helping drive prevention strategies and also facilitating transplants. But kidney disease is not the only reason we invited Javier on to Leadership Next. One, he really is a unique leader. He was born in Mexico. He is very authentic in his style, and very thoughtful about where the healthcare industry is going and where it needs to go.

Lev-Ram: Totally, Alan. He was a panelist, by the way, at this years Brainstorm Health conference back in April, alongside Karen Lynch from CVS. And they spoke on a panel on the future of integrated health care. So a lot of good nuggets from that conversation as well. We were able to dig into some of this, dig deeper into his thoughts on the industry, in this Leadership Next conversation. Also talked about healthcare staffing shortage, and of course, you cant have a conversation with a CEO today without talking about A.I.

Murray: Yeah. And we also talked about how Javier turned down a $650 million government aid bailout during COVID, which is pretty extraordinary. And also his story about a patient named Jack who took a shot of an eponymous liquor before every round of dialysis. So lets get into it, Michal. Heres our conversation with Javier Rodriguez of DaVita.

Lev-Ram: Javier, thanks so much for joining us and Im going to start with a pretty basic question. Youre focused on supporting people who are affected by kidney disease. Before we jump into some of the specifics of that and what DaVita does, I just want to ask and better understand what is it about kidney disease in particular that an entire healthcare company is focused on it? And just share with us why its such a big problem and how big it is.

Javier Rodriguez: Thank you. I mean, the biggest part of the trick here is theres over 30 million Americans that have a form of kidney disease, but roughly 600,000 or so have their kidneys fail. It is a chronic disease, meaning that you cannot survive without it being treated. So theres different stages of kidney disease. So its like a continuum. Stage one through three, you are in whats called CKD. And then when you get through stage five, your kidneys dont work. And if your kidneys dont work, what what that means is that you, in essence, cant urinate and get rid of excess fluids and toxins in the body. So you need a constant process to actually cleanse your blood. And so therefore, while there is not a big population, theres a high frequency of the exchange in order to keep your blood clean.

Murray: And these people come to you for the dialysis process on a regular basis. Theyre repeat customers.

Rodriguez: Well, theres three ways you can get your dialysis. You could get it either, A, in a clinic, B, you can actually do it at hometheres different ways of doing it at homeand then C is you can be in the hospital. And the great majority of do it in a center in one of our clinics or other competitors that have clinics.

Murray: So the big question I have about that is, you know, and it gets to the issue of, of our healthcare system broadly, my guess is most of your patients come to you after they are already in deep trouble, and so youre keeping them alive, which is a great service, but youre not curing them. And so how do we get to a point where were actually addressing the causes of the disease? And also how are you incentivized, I mean, if they come to you, you make money. The more people who have kidney disease, the more people who come to you, the more money you make. How do you as a business person create a a system where the incentives are to actually cure people, not to treat them?

Rodriguez: Youre on to a huge question, of course, in healthcare. And youre absolutely right, by time, we get the patients theyre in a pretty complex situation and we do our best to be the safety net. But our strategy is absolutely about moving up in the continuum and get to the patients before and identify them and really, really invest in them so that their continuum doesnt continue. And so the hard part of this is that its very silent, kidney disease is very hard to detect. But if we can put you on a monitor and put our A.I. and our intellectual resources to work, we can start to say the difference between patient A and patient B is that one is actually going to progress. And then we can do interventions to slow down that progression. 

Murray:How do you get to them? 

Rodriguez: And thats what were trying to do with, with the payers and with the government. Were doing a lot of demonstration projects where were starting to say, Hey, can you give me the population x years in advance so that we, in essence, dont get them once their kidneys failed, but rather when they have kidney disease. 

Murray: But the economic model, its a fee for service. If they come to your clinics, you make a lot of money. So once their kidneys have failed and they start coming to your clinics, youre making money. How do you get the incentives in place for you to find them early on, and help them then so they dont have to come to your clinics?

Rodriguez: Right. Well, one of the things weve done to try to get those incentives to be a lot more in line is we have a bundled treatment, one treatment for everything thats involved in your session. So thats taken a lot of the utilization and specialists out of it. And then number two is if you go to an insurance company and say, Hey, if you invest, you know, before they come to kidney disease, and so thats called, you know, total cost management, if you will, of a life, you will be better off. And so if you think of anything that you do, that you consume, if you prevent it, if you take maintenance, it of course lasts longer. And so what we need now is the insurance companies to care about the life overall, and not about chapters and episodes of illness. And were working with a lot of payers and theyre really enthusiastic about solving it.

Lev-Ram: So this is a good segue. I wanted to ask you to share this story. I know youve shared it a few times about this one particular patient who had been coming for dialysis for, I think, 46 years, maybe. Was it in Iowa? Can you share the story and just, you know, maybe thats emblematic of a bit of how people are using this.

Rodriguez: You know, we have all sorts of amazing stories. And this particular one that you talk about, a patient named Jack that when it came to my attention, I was a brand new CEO, and they said, Hey, Jack has been dialyzing for 40-plus years. I said, Oh my gosh, Ive got to go meet this person. And basically,  one of the things that he did, it was a little in where you were going, Alan. The real secret sauce was that he took care of himself. He literally took a lot of ownership. His kidneys failed through an accident, no fault of his. And then he said, how can I make the best quality of life that I have? And then the other thing is he formed a family within our care team. I mean, people love Jack. The doctor knows everything about Jack, the nurses, the technicians. When I went to see him, they were so excited to show me all about Jack, tell me stories about him, etc. And hes a character, fun full of life 80 plus year old that didnt say, oh, dialysis is going to take over my life. But instead he said, I want to be an active participant and make the best of my life.

Lev-Ram: So and  I understand that he because he said his name is Jack, he also has a shot of Jack Daniels every day, and that apparently helps out.

Rodriguez: He said that was part of the trick. I kind of omitted that. He was a really, really funny guy. But you know, we have story after story. Next week were meeting with 600 nephrologists. And we have a patient speaker, his name is Marco, and he was so inspired by the care team, that he actually went on to be a nurse and he got a transplant and now he works for us. So this is where you see, you see that the humanity and the connection really matters. 

Murray: Which gets to another issue that is affecting society broadly but is really critical, I would imagine,  for your business, which is the the people shortage, thetalent shortage. Getting the nurses and the health care workers you need to how many clinics do you have?

Rodriguez: We have over 2,500. 

Murray: So how many people do you have operating those 2,500 clinics?

Rodriguez: We have over 50,000 caregivers.

Murray: And with the unemployment rate down below 4%. 

Lev-Ram: And the push for automation, of course, all of these trends? 

Murray: Yeah. So how do you how do you deal with that? 

Rodriguez: You know, its a challenge for all of us. To say that its not a challenge would be, would be untrue. But, like any other CEO, what I want most is to be a differentiated place to work. I want you to have purpose. I want you to really belong. I want you to be connected to your work. And in order to do that, we cumulatively have to co-own our work environment. And so we have a lot of things to really do wrap-around so that you say, on average, if I could work at DaVita or I could work somewhere else, I choose DaVita. And so instead of technology being something you have to do, we want to make it as simple as possible so that its the right information in the right place. And so you have so many passionate caregivers that are losing their sparkle, their passion for life, because were making them do all of these tedious things. And so what were trying to do is literally say, can we get the heart of the caregiver to shine through? And so what can we do? And we have literally hundreds of eyes and ears to say how can we make your life better? And so we have all kinds of trainings and other things.

Murray: Is automation a part of that? 

Rodriguez: Automation is not so much part of it. We want to standardize a whole bunch of things that people dont find value or fulfillment in. But on average, what we want is a human touch. Because if you or I or Michal wants to get dialysis, let me just tell you what you want is respect. You want empathy, you want caring, all of these words that a machine or standardization will not fulfill what you want.

[Music starts] 

Murray: Jason Girzadas, the CEO-elect of Deloitte US, is the sponsor of this podcast and joins me today. Welcome, Jason. 

Jason Girzadas: Thank you, Alan. Its great to be here.

Murray: Jason, our ideas about work, where we work, when we work, how we work, all of those have continued to evolve since the pandemic. Is that a problem for business? Or is it an opportunity for business?

Girzadas: Its a massive opportunity. Although I think the answer is less clear, it is a profound set of challenges, to be sure. But in the end, its an opportunity to create a workplace, particularly in the face of more long-term systemic talent-workforce constraints and limitations that brings out the best of a workforce so people can be their genuine self at work, can have heightened levels of productivity and feel supported in all that they do. But I dont think the models are clear. And were seeing lots of experimentation, whether thats around hybrid and what does it mean to actually co-locate and what degree of colocation matters. Its also a function of how does technology get embedded into the workplace such that employees and workforces feel supported and enabled. Then also the cultural elements related to diversity, equity, inclusion and feeling supported to be your genuine self at work? Its the combination, Alan, of all those factors that leading companies will innovate around and find novel ways to bring together, that will be highly desirous of leading talent and will be a differentiator in terms of businesses using their workplace and their work processes to win in new and different ways.

Murray: Jason, thanks for your perspective. And thanks for sponsoring Leadership Next.  

Girzadas: Thank you. 

[Music ends]  

Lev-Ram: So I want to ask you, just on the on the business side and some of the growth there, Berkshire Hathaway has an almost 40% stake in the company, in DaVita, and I think were just curious to hear how did this come about? Is Warren Buffett really concerned and sees the opportunity here in kidney care? And how has it evolved since their initial investment several years back?

Rodriguez: So yes, Berkshire owns over 40% of DaVita, and they made a certain kind of investment, and as you know, they are the long-term thinkers. And so the way that they accumulated to that position is DaVita kept buying back its share so their position grew. But if you are going to ask a CEO who is the best shareholder out there, I would tell you its Berkshire because, number one, their long term vision. Number two, theyre just very wise. And then number three, the way that they guide a CEO is incredibly thoughtful. So I view them as a true partner and a great owner.

Murray: It says a lot about the company that theyre invested in the stock. But you have other people out there, Jim Chanos, the short seller, has been critical of the company for gaming the Medicare system and all of that. What do you say to those critics?

Rodriguez: You know, look, at the end of the day, you never know what the incentives are, right? When someone goes on CNBC and says something and theyre shorting the stock, obviously, they want it, theyre playing game, they want to make money. The good news on that one is it didnt pan out very well for him. And so over time, you just try to focus, do the right thing for the patient, do the right thing for the team. And we think that the results will follow.

Murray: You mentioned earlier your venture fund, can you talk more about the venture fund and how you use it? What are you trying to do with it? What change are you trying to drive?

Rodriguez: You know, what we want most of anything is to transform from a, literally, a dialysis company to a kidney care company. And in order to do that, at the center of it all has to be the patient. And so then you say, gosh, the patient has a lot of needs, from cardiovascular to diabetes care to, you know, you can go, on the list goes on. And so what were saying is, Hey, we need a venture group that can say, When are we a great customer? So please find someone that we can align with and build bridges from a technology perspective and other things. And when should we be a buyer and integrat it into our suite of offerings. But what that task of that entity is to do is to supplement and so for example, we made an investment in a transplant software company. And we said why? Well, our patients, the only way that they can get cured is to get a transplant. And if you get a transplant, its sort of quote unquote, the dream come true. Well, the transplant centers arent connected to the clinics. So we went out and we said, Whats the best software out there that connects to over a third of the transplant centers in the United States, and we acquired it. And what we want to do is make sure that our patients know where they are in the in the process, because its very hard and very tedious to know where you are in the process of a transplant.

Lev-Ram: Are there interesting innovations also on, just more strictly, on the dialysis front? We saw such an explosion in health tech, digital health investments, and new startups enter the space in the last few years, and I dont feel like Ive seen much on the dialysis side. I just I dont know what innovations there are there. But are you seeing startups interested in the space?

Rodriguez: You know, the startups are unproven. They have a lot of hypotheses and we love their hypotheses, because were trying it as well, and we think that we are best positioned to actually perform in a significant way. But if youre talking about dialysis, its one of the only services that has had incremental improvement overall. So that over 25 years, the life expectancy has actually changed more than in breast cancer, if you can believe that, through all the innovation. So through literally the service, our mortality has improved dramatically over a 25-year period. And the quality of life has improved. So were very excited. We literally count the days that we saved in the hospital from last year to this yearnow we have a bunch of COVID noise in therebut in general, our hospitalization, our patient is spending like another 55,000 nights at home, they would have been in the hospital a year before that.

Lev-Ram: Whats the average amount of time that a patient spends on dialysis?

Rodriguez: Life expectancy, roughly six years and theres variability, like Jack, forty-some odd years. And theres some that are of course, come and its a very short stay, because theyre quite ill.

Murray: Changing the subject a little bit. 

Rodriguez: Yeah. 

Murray: I want to talk about your personal story. You were born in Mexico, where they knew how to correctly pronounce your name. 

[Laughter]

Murray: And you immigrated to the United States. Can you talk about how that experience affects the way you lead as a CEO? 

Rodriguez: Absolutely, it is at the core of who I am. Because when you live in Mexico, youre exposed to a level of poverty that doesnt exist in the U.S., although, of course, every country has its challenges. But in Mexico, it is really, you know, very visible in day-to-day life. We came to the States because my dad didnt like the corruption and the ethics of the country, and it has impacted my opportunity. And sort of my dad said, you know, Im going to give you a chance of a lifetime to live in the best country on earth and make something of it, and I do feel a big obligation because they sacrificed a lot. My dad and my mom came, they put all of the resources into a business that failed. 

Murray: How old were you? 

Rodriguez: I was 13. And so we went from having some resources to having no resources. And that was also very formative that you say, Okay, you do what you think to be right and sometimes you end up on the wrong side. But seeing the character of my parents just getting up the next day and working hard. And I just wanted to make that opportunity count.

Murray: And how did you end up at DaVita?

Rodriguez: You know, I was at business school, and I went to be a consultant for the summer. I thought it was going to be my calling. And I said, Oh, my gosh, Im going to be the worlds worst consultant. And so then I changed, I pivoted, and I met some people in the recruiting process, and they were just so happy. And I said, you know, Why are you so happy? And they said, My work really matters. And then thats, you know, I was too young at the time, I just wanted to get out of my student debt. My wife was pregnant. I just wanted to make a living for ourselves. And then all of a sudden, you say, Gosh, I got to think about, hows my energy going to be day to day and how am I going to be my best self? And, and I felt the distinct difference between professional services financial of nature and healthcare. So it just kind of caught my attention.

Murray: Fascinating.

Lev-Ram: Continuing on on your leadership journey. Your predecessor was in the role for 20 years. What kind of shoes does that feel like stepping into? And youve been with a company for a long time as well.

Rodriguez: Yes. So I was by his side. So I started actually 

Murray: Waiting for him to go and create the opportunity for you? 

Rodriguez: I was a successor for a little longer than expected. Hows that? But look, it creates a bit of self doubt, right? When you when you come to these podcasts and you talk about character, I think one of the things that youve done such a nice job of and the ones that Ive heard is, you see that there wasnt a linear path to the top. Theres insecurities, theres doubts, all the human emotions that go through through this process, I had all of those. And when you get the calling after someone that was a big known name, you wonder, are you going to be able to rise to the position and fill in the shoes, if you will. And one of the things I found is the organization has been incredible. I became CEO and the pandemic hit. And so there was no, whats your voice? Whats this? You just buckle down and say, were going to do whats right. Because as opposed to everybody else that had months to get used to remote working and this and the other, we had to take care of people the next day. The next day or they will die. And so to mobilize over 50,000 people around the globe in 12 countries to go to work when theyre scared, but they do it for their neighbor that needs them. It really, really brought the heart of the company to life. And frankly, my voice became just authentic, imperfect, less articulate, etc. but people forgave it because they saw that my heart was in the right place. 

Lev-Ram: So I guess, natural next question sort of here, this might be an oversimplification of what happened, but my understanding is that you turned down government money that was part of the pandemic relief package, and we dont see companies turn down free money, quote unquote, very often. So can you explain a little bit about what actually went on there and why you made that decision?

Rodriguez: You know, business leaders right now talk about ESG all the time, and whats right and whats in vogue, and what what should you say as a CEO. When that money came to us, which was over $250 million, we sat down and said, What is the spirit of that money? And the government literally said, the health care system is going to melt down? We have hospitals, rural hospitals, and people that need care and so were going to inject a safety net. And to me, it was, We do not need a safety net because weve been preparing and were a strong company, and this money should go to someone that needs it. I really believe that the intent was to save the country from panic and chaos. And if you didnt need the money, to me and to our board and to our shareholders. The board conversation was this was like getting food stamps and you have a pantry. And it just didnt feel right to use the food stamps. So we said someone else will need them. And oh, by the way, it wasnt an easy decision because $250 million is $250 million. And then as the pandemic dragged on and our costs and inflation came, a lot of people scrutinize the decision and said maybe you should have kept it. And Im not debating philosophically whether theyre right or were right. But at the end of the day, it felt consistent to our values.

Murray: Wow, Ive got to tell you I mean, I, there are a lot of companies out there that are proud of their efforts to do good in the world. But if youre talking about $250 million on the table, and they choose not to take it, and not because theyre a bunch of strings attached, but because they dont think its right for them to take it. I mean, its kind of like companies that moved to Ireland because they can or to the Bahamas or whatever, because they can escape tax liability. 

Rodriguez: Right. 

Murray: What you did is not as common as it should be in business. Why not?

Rodriguez: You know, I wont speak for others. What I can tell you is what I said at the beginning, we want to be a different company not to be different. We want our spirit and our ethics and our lifestyle to be reflected in the enterprise that we work in. And at that time it felt like a very, very sensitive time in humankind, literally in our history. Now, were all past it and we can all talk about and maybe people are like, what an idiot, he should have taken the $250 million, etc. But at the time, it felt like, Boy, we, we are all coming together as humanity here, and we should all pitch in. 

Murray: Did the board push back? 

Rodriguez: The board had an incredible dialogue, and was very, very proud to make the decision because the board had to make the decision and endorse it.

Lev-Ram: Im still kind of blown away by this. Pandemic aside, I mean, we talked about the the workforce challenges. What else do you see on the horizon that youre concerned about? Or excited about when it comes to the health care industry? And I know, thats, theres probably no end to the answers there. But is there a particular challenge that you see, that you think will impact your business specifically, thats coming up?

Rodriguez: Well, theres a lot of things on the horizon both, lets call them scary and exciting all at once. I think youve spoken to other podcasts and or in your healthcare conference, we spoke of the wide range that healthcare has to deal with right. On the one hand, we have glimmers of what the future looks like and how exciting it is and how intuitive it is. And on the other hand, you have realities of boy, I cant even get a doctors appointment without waiting six weeks type of thing. So we are in a bit of an intersection point. I think the nice part or the good part of the pandemic for the healthcare segment is everybodys paying attention now. Everybody wants a solution. Everybody was living their life and saying, Ill worry when I get sick. All sudden is like, Wait, maybe we should be paying more attention to it now. Because we need this healthcare system to work. Its one of the only things were all going to use. So all eyes are on us as a community. And we have to solve for a lot of things now.

Murray: Yeah, well, so let me ask you about that. I think were probably about out of time so this may be the last question. And apologies if it feels like a ridiculous question to you. But if you could change one thing, as you say, weve got a lot of problems in our healthcare system. We have a lot of good things going on but we have a lot of problems. If you could change one thing, if there were, were, theres no silver bullet, but at least the kind of shiny  10 ullet something that would help?

Rodriguez: Id be taller and more handsome. Oh, youre talking about healthcare? Okay. No, look, theres so many things. But if I had to do one thing is that you had your personal health record on your phone and you would never have to fill out another darn form that says that you waive this and what are you allergic to? And what did your mom have and what your dad have and blah, blah, blah. And all of those forms, not only are they tedious and inefficient, theyre literally a problem for all our health connectivity. So that we could say Boy, this is Alan and this is what we know about his parents and this is what happened to his brother and sister and da da da da da all in one click

Murray: And all the people caring for you can have access to it if you give it to them.

Rodriguez: Right and you dont see a contraindications of medications, etc., that when you go to one doctor they dont know what the other doctors did. 

Murray: Its a great piece of advice.

Lev-Ram: Amen to that. Thank you so much, Javier. I appreciate you coming on and talking to us. 

Rodriguez: Thank you.

Murray: Leadership Next is edited and produced by Alexis Haut. Our theme is by Jason Snell. Our executive producer is Megan Arnold. Leadership Next is a product of Fortune Media.

Leadership Next episodes are produced by Fortunes editorial team. The views and opinions expressed by podcast speakers and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Deloitte or its personnel. Nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the episodes.

Reportedly thanks to a clever embrace of diversity, equity and inclusion policieswhich Musk calls wokeit has earned a higher score when it comes to environmental, social and governance (ESG) criteria in the S&P 500 sustainability index.

Meanwhile, the electric vehicle pioneer has been penalized for its lack of DEI, including the sacking of its LGBTQ+ community president.

That could steer private capital away from his business interests as some money managers have mandates to direct their funds towards companies deemed more ethical than others.

ESG is the devil, wrote Musk on Wednesday in response to a report published in the Washington Free Beacon. 

The article cited Teslas poor score upon re-entering the S&P 500 sustainability index, receiving only 37 out of a maximum 100 points, versus the 84 achieved by cigarette merchant Philip Morris International.

Companies like PMI and Altria, which split up the rights to sell Marlboro when the company broke up, are responsible for an estimated 8 million cancer-related deaths worldwide every year and would not seem obvious candidates for ESG investing.

Yet the right-leaning publication reported the two companies have bumped up their score by emphasizing diversity in their boards, the funding of minority businesses and other inclusive measures in an attempt to win back deep-pocket asset managers.

The CEO of PMI told the Financial Times late last month he believed the cigarette seller could be classified as ethical again under ESG criteria by increasing the share of sales from products like smokeless tobacco. 

Sure, you all wanted to know, right? @SPGlobalRatings do you have any credibility left?
And how come you didnt make the same hoopla this year (on April 21st) when you included Tesla back into the S&P 500 ESG index? Much more catchy last year, right? This time tiptoeing pic.twitter.com/aUEUIVGidK

Alexandra Merz (@TeslaBoomerMama) May 31, 2023

Greenwashing has undermined credibility

The idea of ethical investing quickly caught on in Europe, where companies can and have been sued for failing to meet their net-zero commitments.

In the United States, however, Republicans have successfully branded ESG woke capitalism and dispute the core argument that those companies act in the best interest of their investors by serving what they argue are progressive causes.

They have been aided in their argument by rampant abuse of the systemknown as greenwashingwhich has undermined credibility in the system even among its proponents. 

In Europe, for example, political horse-trading threatens to turn a crackdown on greenwashing into a farce as member states squabble over the impact a harmonized set of criteria would have on their respective domestic industry. 

Even Norges, which has long enjoyed the reputation of being a responsible investor, finds itself repeatedly under attack over its treatment of fossil fuels. While it is not permitted by law from investing in coal, it is free to invest in Exxon Mobil or BP, whose negligence caused the Valdez and Deepwater Horizon environmental disasters. 

Musk himself became a vocal critic of ESG ever since Tesla was first booted from the S&P 500s sustainability index a year ago.

After Fortune reported some two weeks later about allegations over fraudulent ESG investing by Deutsche Bank, Musk claimed all ESG lists were suddenly fraudulent.

I have yet to see an ESG list that *isnt* fraudulent

Elon Musk (@elonmusk) June 1, 2022